The Global Search for Education
“Providing college tuition-free without getting the money back through taxes for the better educated means that the poor end up subsidizing the education of the rich.” — Andreas Schleicher
On US Education Problems
By C. M. Rubin with Harry Rubin and Michael Freeborn
According to Andreas Schleicher of OECD, the United States is unique among countries in that the generation of workers entering the US workforce does not have higher college attainment levels than the generation about to leave the workforce. He further believes a key strategy to addressing this problem is improving equitable access to education across the board and that good examples of how to achieve this can be found in other education systems such as Finland, Canada, Japan or Korea. None of this sounds particularly new, but I wondered if Andreas were making the big picture education decisions, how would he address some of our key issues? We recently had the opportunity to discuss this further.
Andreas Schleicher is Special Advisor on Education Policy to OECD’s Secretary-General, and is Deputy Director for Education. He also provides strategic oversight over OECD’s work on the development and utilization of skills and their social and economic outcomes. This includes the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), the OECD Survey of Adult Skills (PIAAC), the OECD Teaching and Learning International Survey (TALIS), and the development and analysis of benchmarks on the performance of education systems (INES).
“Spending in the US is regressive in that schools in disadvantaged areas end up with less resources than schools in socially advantaged areas (in virtually all other industrialized countries it is the other way round).” — Andreas Schleicher
Should government provide tuition free education from pre-school through college?
There is no free education; someone has to pay. If governments provide free education from pre-school through college, they need to back that up with a steeply progressive tax system so that the better qualified people end up paying the bill eventually. The Nordic countries in Europe show that this can work, and work well. The other good option is to ask students to pay tuition and to back that up with a universal student support system that provides an income-contingent loan system complemented with a scheme of means-tested grants. In that way you minimize risks for students, avoid that they end up with huge debt that they cannot pay back, and you provide special assistance to those students who would otherwise be prevented from attending university. The UK shows how this can work. Providing college tuition-free without getting the money back through taxes for the better-educated means that the poor end up subsidizing the education of the rich.
Are you in favor of privatizing public schools?
Results from PISA show no performance advantage of private schools, once you account for social background. However, cross-country analysis of PISA suggests that the prevalence of schools’ autonomy to define and elaborate their curricula and assessments relates positively to the performance of school systems, even after accounting for national income. School systems that provide schools with greater discretion in deciding student assessment policies, the courses offered, the course content and the textbooks used are also school systems that perform at higher levels. So perhaps the question for countries is not how many private or charter schools they have, but how they enable every public school to assume charter-type responsibility.
“Perhaps the question for countries is not how many private or charter schools they have, but how they enable every public school to assume charter-type responsibility.” — Andreas Schleicher
Since every child is probably not meant to pursue a liberal arts education, what would you do to make our children more competitive in the skilled trade jobs market?
Our data show that when employers are involved in designing curricula and delivering education programs at the post-secondary level, students seem to have a smoother transition from education into the labor market. Compared to purely government-designed curricula taught in school-based systems, learning in the workplace offers several advantages: it allows trainees to develop “hard” skills on modern equipment, and “soft” skills, such as teamwork, communication and negotiation, through real-world experience. Hands-on workplace training can also help to motivate disengaged youth to stay in or re-engage with the education system. Workplace training also facilitates recruitment by allowing employers and potential employees to get to know each other, while trainees contribute to the output of the training firm. Workplace learning opportunities are also a direct expression of employers’ needs, as employers will be ready to offer opportunities in areas where there is a skills shortage.
“Our data show that when employers are involved in designing curricula and delivering education programs at the post-secondary level, students seem to have a smoother transition from education into the labor market.” — Andreas Schleicher
Do you think that the United States needs to do more in the area of early childhood education, and if so, what?
One the one hand, the US falls well behind most countries in the industrialized world when it comes to early childhood education, and this is clearly a key lever to raise quality and equity in learning outcomes. At the same time, the US does really well when you look at student performance in primary education, so-so when it comes to performance in middle school, and not very well when it comes to performance in high school. This suggests that students actually get quite a strong start, but the school system adds less year after year than what children in other countries learn. That is something you don’t address with better early childhood education but with a better school system.
What do you think is the best way to fund our public schools?
The US spends plenty of money on public schools, but our data show three things. First of all, a disproportionally high share of that spending does not make it into the classroom. Secondly, spending is regressive in that schools in disadvantaged areas end up with less resources than schools in socially advantaged areas (in virtually all other industrialized countries it is the other way around). This does not allow the US to attract the most talented teachers into the most challenging classrooms, which would make public spending most effective. Third, high performing countries tend to prioritize the quality of teachers and the size of classes. The trend in the US over the last decade has gone the other way around.
Andreas Schleicher and C. M. Rubin
Photos courtesy of OECD
In The Global Search for Education, join me and globally renowned thought leaders including Sir Michael Barber (UK), Dr. Michael Block (U.S.), Dr. Leon Botstein (U.S.), Professor Clay Christensen (U.S.), Dr. Linda Darling-Hammond (U.S.), Dr. Madhav Chavan (India), Professor Michael Fullan (Canada), Professor Howard Gardner (U.S.), Professor Andy Hargreaves (U.S.), Professor Yvonne Hellman (The Netherlands), Professor Kristin Helstad (Norway), Jean Hendrickson (U.S.), Professor Rose Hipkins (New Zealand), Professor Cornelia Hoogland (Canada), Honourable Jeff Johnson (Canada), Mme. Chantal Kaufmann (Belgium), Dr. Eija Kauppinen (Finland), State Secretary Tapio Kosunen (Finland), Professor Dominique Lafontaine (Belgium), Professor Hugh Lauder (UK), Professor Ben Levin (Canada), Lord Ken Macdonald (UK), Professor Barry McGaw (Australia), Shiv Nadar (India), Professor R. Natarajan (India), Dr. Pak Tee Ng (Singapore), Dr. Denise Pope (US), Sridhar Rajagopalan (India), Dr. Diane Ravitch (U.S.), Richard Wilson Riley (U.S.), Sir Ken Robinson (UK), Professor Pasi Sahlberg (Finland), Andreas Schleicher (PISA, OECD), Dr. Anthony Seldon (UK), Dr. David Shaffer (U.S.), Dr. Kirsten Sivesind (Norway), Chancellor Stephen Spahn (U.S.), Yves Theze (Lycee Francais U.S.), Professor Charles Ungerleider (Canada), Professor Tony Wagner (U.S.), Sir David Watson (UK), Professor Dylan Wiliam (UK), Dr. Mark Wormald (UK), Professor Theo Wubbels (The Netherlands), Professor Michael Young (UK), and Professor Minxuan Zhang (China) as they explore the big picture education questions that all nations face today.
The Global Search for Education Community Page
C. M. Rubin is the author of two widely read online series for which she received a 2011 Upton Sinclair award, “The Global Search for Education” and “How Will We Read?” She is also the author of three bestselling books, including The Real Alice in Wonderland.
Follow C. M. Rubin on Twitter: www.twitter.com/@cmrubinworld
The Global Search for Education
“I believe that it is a public duty to provide a good public school with adequate resources and a rich curriculum in every neighborhood.” — Diane Ravitch
The Education Debate 2012 — Diane Ravitch
By C. M. Rubin with Harry Rubin and Michael Freeborn
Making education a focus during the 2012 election debates is our ongoing goal in The Global Search for Education series. Today I am honored to share the perspectives of Diane Ravitch as we continue the discussion of the issues that we believe will be a priority for the next President of the United States.
Diane Ravitch is Research Professor of Education at New York University and a distinguished historian of American education. She is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington D.C. She served as Assistant Secretary of Education for Research and Improvement in the administration of President George H.W. Bush and was appointed to two terms on the National Assessment Governing Board by the Clinton administration. Ravitch is the author or editor of over 20 books on education, including the national bestseller, The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education (Basic Books).
“It is NOT the role of the Department of Education to foist its own unproven preferences — like evaluating teachers by student test scores or charter schools or merit pay — on states and districts.”— Diane Ravitch
What should the role of federal government be in K- 12 education? How much more funding should be given to education reform and in what major areas should it be spent?
The federal government has certain roles that have been consistent since the passage of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act in 1965:
First, to equalize spending for the neediest districts, especially those that enroll children who are poor.
Second, to protect the civil rights of children.
Third, to provide accurate and timely information about the condition and progress of education, including support for the no-stakes National Assessment of Educational Progress.
Fourth, to fund the education of children with disabilities.
Fifth, to aid low-income students who enroll in college.
The basic mission of the U.S. Department of Education is to support equality of educational opportunity.
It is not the role of the Department of Education to foist its own unproven preferences — like evaluating teachers by student test scores or charter schools or merit pay — on states and districts.
“I would like to see higher standards for entry into schools of education. I would wish that every teacher has a four-year degree in a content area, and a fifth year of study of education.” — Diane Ravitch
What would be your position on improving the teaching profession, including recruitment, teacher training, compensation, and assignment to low-income schools?
I would like to see higher standards for entry into schools of education. I would wish that every teacher has a four-year degree in a content area, so they are knowledgeable in the subjects they will teach, and a fifth year of study of education, including cognitive science, adolescent psychology, assessment, cultural diversity, the sociology of the family and the community, and the history, politics, and economics of education. No one should be allowed to teach who does not have a year of study that includes practice teaching and research. I would also disallow education degrees earned online. Teachers should be paid more for taking on additional responsibilities; they should not have their pay or evaluation tied to test scores of students.
Teaching should be a prestigious career. Those who enter teaching should be well-prepared and expect to make a career in education.
“The US lags far behind the rest of the world in establishing high-quality early childhood education.”
— Diane Ravitch
What would be your position on school choice, including charter schools and their expansion, private schools, vouchers, and investment in inadequately staffed and facilitated low-income schools?
I oppose school choice outside the public school system. I oppose private management of public schools. I oppose for-profit schools. I fear that in time we will see the re-emergence of a dual system of schools in our cities, with charters for the able and public schools serving the rejects from charter schools. I see district after district where charters drain funding and top students away from the public schools. It makes no sense. I oppose vouchers. I believe that it is a public duty to provide a good public school with adequate resources and a rich curriculum in every neighborhood. Every school should have the staff and resources it needs to provide a full curriculum, after-school activities and appropriate services for students.
What would be your strategy to address the domestic and international achievement gaps, including your position on early childhood education, standardized testing, on-line modular education, and teacher/principal accountability?
I think we should stress early childhood education. The US lags far behind the rest of the world in establishing high-quality early childhood education. I think we should minimize the use of standardized testing, use it only for diagnostic purposes, not for accountability, not for rewards or punishments or school closings. Standardized tests reflect gaps, they don’t close them. The online schools have very poor results and do nothing to improve achievement. The best way to improve achievement is to improve the standard of living of our poorest children while improving the curriculum at all schools and the professional supports for teachers. One important reform would be to make sure that every child has a regular medical check-up, that every school has access to a health clinic and/or a school nurse. In the schools that serve the neediest children, class sizes should be reduced to no more than 20.
“Every school should have a full and balanced curriculum, with a rich arts program, history, civics, geography, mathematics, the sciences, foreign languages, and literature.” — Diane Ravitch
What would be your position on curriculum reform, including the role of the arts, the treatment of ethics, and the adoption of blended online learning?
I believe that every school should have a full and balanced curriculum, with a rich arts program, history, civics, geography, mathematics, the sciences, foreign languages, and literature. Every school should have a library with a full range of resources, including computers and the Internet.
I would ban for-profit schooling.
What would be your position on how to make college affordable for more qualified low income students?
The federal government should increase subsidies for college for low-income and middle-income students. Education is a basic human right and it should not be denied because of inability to pay. Young people should not be buried in debt when they finish college. We can’t expect to increase college enrollment rates if young people cannot afford to go. I also think the government should be extremely vigilant in policing for-profit colleges, where the attrition rates are extremely high and young people drop out with heavy debt and no education.
Diane Ravitch and C. M. Rubin
Photos courtesy of Jack Miller and Diane Ravitch
In The Global Search for Education, join me and globally renowned thought leaders including Sir Michael Barber (UK), Dr. Michael Block (US), Dr. Leon Botstein (US), Professor Clay Christensen (US), Dr. Linda Darling-Hammond (US), Dr. Madhav Chavan (India), Professor Michael Fullan (Canada), Professor Howard Gardner (US), Professor Andy Hargreaves (US), Professor Yvonne Hellman (The Netherlands), Professor Kristin Helstad (Norway), Jean Hendrickson (US), Professor Rose Hipkins (New Zealand), Professor Cornelia Hoogland (Canada), Mme. Chantal Kaufmann (Belgium), Dr. Eija Kauppinen (Finland), State Secretary Tapio Kosunen (Finland), Professor Dominique Lafontaine (Belgium), Professor Hugh Lauder (UK), Professor Ben Levin (Canada), Lord Ken Macdonald (UK), Professor Barry McGaw (Australia), Shiv Nadar (India), Professor R. Natarajan (India), Dr. Pak Tee Ng (Singapore), Dr. Denise Pope (US), Sridhar Rajagopalan (India), Dr. Diane Ravitch (US), Sir Ken Robinson (UK), Professor Pasi Sahlberg (Finland), Andreas Schleicher (PISA, OECD), Dr. Anthony Seldon (UK), Dr. David Shaffer (US), Dr. Kirsten Sivesind (Norway), Chancellor Stephen Spahn (US), Yves Theze (Lycee Francais US), Professor Charles Ungerleider (Canada), Professor Tony Wagner (US), Sir David Watson (UK), Professor Dylan Wiliam (UK), Dr. Mark Wormald (UK), Professor Theo Wubbels (The Netherlands), Professor Michael Young (UK), and Professor Minxuan Zhang (China) as they explore the big picture education questions that all nations face today.
The Global Search for Education Community Page
C. M. Rubin is the author of two widely read online series for which she received a 2011 Upton Sinclair award, “The Global Search for Education” and “How Will We Read?” She is also the author of three bestselling books, including The Real Alice in Wonderland.
Follow C. M. Rubin on Twitter: www.twitter.com/@cmrubinworld
The Global Search for Education
“The low-income schools that are struggling seem to get the teachers that are not the best. The states have to change that situation and put the priority on placing the top teachers in low-income schools.”— Dick Riley
The Education Debate - Richard Wilson Riley
C. M. Rubin with Harry Rubin and Michael Freeborn
The last presidential debate offered little in the way of focus on education and related policy. Today in The Global Search for Education series, I continue my conversations with education luminaries to discuss the issues that we believe will be a priority for the next President of the United States.
My imaginary Secretary of Education this week is former U.S. Secretary of Education and past Governor of South Carolina, Richard Wilson Riley. A lifelong advocate for high-quality education, many Americans (according to The Christian Science Monitor) regard Riley as “one of the great statesmen of education of the 20th century.” Serving for both of President Clinton’s terms, Riley helped to launch many historic initiatives to raise academic standards, improve instruction for the poor and disadvantaged, modernize schools, expand grant and loan programs for higher education, and improve teaching, among other significant advances.
Currently, Dick Riley speaks, provides leadership and serves in an advisory and collaborative capacity with many entities to promote education improvement in the United States and abroad.
What should the role of federal government be in K- 12 education? How much more funding should be given to education reform and in what major areas should it be spent?
The federal government should establish national priorities, such as helping disabled children (IDEA) and low-income children (Title 1). Those big national priorities that generally are funded by the federal government should continue to be part of the national policy.
The other part of national education policy should be about encouraging and challenging states to improve and to reform education through innovation. We should continue to call for challenging academic standards in core subjects, allowing public charter schools as part of choice, encouraging high teacher performance - those kinds of things are part of the President’s reform package. All of those measures should be put in place by the states. The states should be submitting plans for getting those things done. So that’s how I see the role of federal government policy.
Continuing to fund education during a time of economic recession is one of the main strengths of President Obama. In the middle of a recession that was not of his making, a recession that was handed to him when he took office as president, Obama made education a priority. He recognized that this is a knowledge-based economy, not just nationally, but globally. He recognized that we could not turn around an economy if our education system was failing. He took the initiative to prioritize education. I thought and still think that this was a brave and courageous thing to do. And, frankly, I think it has worked.
What would be your position on improving the teaching profession, including recruitment, teacher training, compensation, and assignment to low-income schools?
I have enormous respect for teachers. Not all of our teachers are high-quality teachers but certainly the greater percentages of them are. Further, they generally are committed to moving through all the areas of education reform, such as technology. So I have a very good feeling for teachers.
Countries that seem to rank highest in education right now, like Finland, have prioritized teacher recruitment. They get the very top students for the education profession. They do this by offering higher compensation and other benefits. It works. I think we need to do more in that regard, particularly in terms of finding ways to attract the brightest students to the profession of teaching.
I do not think teachers are being compensated as professionals, and they should be. When you pay teachers more, you can demand more. Also, I am a strong believer in the benefit of teachers working collaboratively with each other. I believe in high-quality teachers helping to improve those that are not. I do not believe in putting one teacher in the classroom and saying that’s it, you’re on your own. When teachers work in teams, students also will learn the importance and value of working in teams.
Right now we seem to send our best teachers to the best K-12 schools. The low-income schools that are struggling seem to get the teachers that are not the best. The states have to change that situation and put the priority on placing the top teachers in low-income schools. It would be a great help if we could move in that direction.
“I firmly oppose vouchers. Public schools are struggling for resources and I believe the idea of shifting a massive amount of money over into the private schools is a mistake.” — Dick Riley
What kinds of things could the states do to make this happen?
For instance, a school in a poor community could provide a residence for a young, high-quality teacher to live in that community. Other incentives could be provided to encourage better teachers to move into low-income school areas. And assistance could be provided for current teachers in low-income schools to gain National Board certification and other professional development to improve their teaching skills.
What would be your position on school choice, including charter schools and their expansion, private schools, vouchers, and investment in inadequately staffed and facilitated low-income schools?
I very much support public school charters. As you know, I was involved in the Clinton administration and we supported charter schools as an option for school boards to develop more public school choice and more school creativity. As with opening any new school, granting a charter does not automatically guarantee success; but generally it has proven to be a good option for students and families, as well as has spurred other creative ideas within the system.
I firmly oppose vouchers. Public schools are struggling for resources and I believe the idea of shifting a massive amount of money over into the private schools is a mistake. I support quality private schools. I support quality parochial schools. But I will continue to oppose strongly the use of public money for private or parochial school vouchers.
What would be your strategy to address the domestic and international achievement gaps, including your position on early childhood education, standardized testing, on-line modular education, and teacher/principal accountability?
Achievement gaps are a major issue, and we need to deal with them.
First of all, I believe we need to look at both domestic and international comparisons in terms of setting our standards and our strategies for improvement.
The only way you can close gaps in the long term is to invest more in early childhood education. All students improve as they move through the system. However, the gap becomes very difficult to close, or even narrow, when local communities don’t make pre-school a priority. Early childhood education involves a lot of things, including parental involvement and proper healthcare to ensure children are better developed by the time they get to kindergarten. We need to focus on this, especially in low-income areas. I very much support strengthening early childhood education.
With regard to standardized testing, that is very important. But we need multiple measures of assessment to determine a child’s (and school’s) academic status and growth. Formative tests that are given on a regular basis and provide timely feedback to teachers, students and their parents are particularly effective in determining what a child knows or doesn’t know and how that child’s instruction should be adjusted to gain continuous improvement.
Evaluating teachers and principals has always been difficult and it’s receiving a lot of discussion nowadays, as it should. I believe that student achievement, especially as far as improvement is concerned, is an important part of evaluating teachers. However, I do not believe that it should be the only method of assessment used. A thoughtful school principal will look at all the different factors that affect good teaching. He or she will develop a system within the school where teachers are collaborating and helping each other to do better, a system where students are learning from students. Observing a teacher’s work in the classroom (either sitting in or using videos) and assigning mentors to work with teachers on teaching methods are other ways that performance can improve.
Evaluating a teacher also depends a lot on who the students are. A teacher with very bright students in a well-to-do suburb is more likely to achieve more in the classroom than a teacher who has students from a very poor neighborhood where the parents (who possibly didn’t have a good education themselves) are struggling. It’s very hard to compare teachers in these situations. I am a great believer in looking at individual student improvement rather than how students are doing side by side. If the students are improving, my feeling is the teacher must be doing a pretty good job.
“I do not think teachers are being compensated as professionals, and they should be. When you pay teachers more, you can demand more.” — Dick Riley
What would be your position on curriculum reform, including the role of the arts, the treatment of ethics, and the adoption of blended online learning?
Technology is now clearly a part of our education system and will continue to change the way we provide education today and in the future. I personally like the blended learning ideas - that is, a blend of online and face-to-face interaction with students. Online learning allows us to reach out in many ways. In addition, it can be done quickly, from any location and at all times of the day. Blended learning will be an important part of education.
I strongly support music and the other arts in education. Enhancing the creative side of learning is extremely important, and studies have shown that music instruction has a beneficial effect on learning math and other core subjects. Learning to be creative, informed and well-rounded is important for our economy and it is important for our world.
Ethics is a very important part of growing up and learning. Parents have a strong role to play in that but so do schools and teachers. Positive role models are one of the best ways to illustrate strong ethics.
What would be your position on how to make college affordable for more qualified low-income students?
The cost of a college education is becoming a big national problem.
I am supportive of early college high schools. This idea of students finishing high school with one and in some cases two years of college behind them will save students money and time. The total cost of a four-year degree also can be reduced by spending the first two years at a community or technical college. This is good.
In President Obama’s plan, he encourages cost containment by colleges and universities. I think they all should be aware of this, paying attention to it and doing something about it. Pell grants, which the President has increased by more than 50%, are a tremendous benefit to low-income students. Also, significant cost savings to students, their families and all taxpayers have resulted from the federal Direct Lending program. With the community colleges and early college high schools programs, plus cost containment, Pell grants and Direct Lending, among others, we all should be able to work together to make college more affordable.
Dick Riley and C. M. Rubin
Photos courtesy of Riley Institute at Furman University and Nelson, Mullins, Riley & Scarborough L.L.P.
In The Global Search for Education, join me and globally renowned thought leaders including Sir Michael Barber (UK), Dr. Michael Block (US), Dr. Leon Botstein (US), Professor Clay Christensen (US), Dr. Linda Darling-Hammond (US), Dr. Madhav Chavan (India), Professor Michael Fullan (Canada), Professor Howard Gardner (US), Professor Andy Hargreaves (US), Professor Yvonne Hellman (The Netherlands), Professor Kristin Helstad (Norway), Jean Hendrickson (US), Professor Rose Hipkins (New Zealand), Professor Cornelia Hoogland (Canada), Mme. Chantal Kaufmann (Belgium), Dr. Eija Kauppinen (Finland), State Secretary Tapio Kosunen (Finland), Professor Dominique Lafontaine (Belgium), Professor Hugh Lauder (UK), Professor Ben Levin (Canada), Lord Ken Macdonald (UK), Professor Barry McGaw (Australia), Shiv Nadar (India), Professor R. Natarajan (India), Dr. Pak Tee Ng (Singapore), Dr. Denise Pope (US), Sridhar Rajagopalan (India), Dr. Diane Ravitch (US), Sir Ken Robinson (UK), Professor Pasi Sahlberg (Finland), Andreas Schleicher (PISA, OECD), Dr. Anthony Seldon (UK), Dr. David Shaffer (US), Dr. Kirsten Sivesind (Norway), Chancellor Stephen Spahn (US), Yves Theze (Lycee Francais US), Professor Charles Ungerleider (Canada), Professor Tony Wagner (US), Sir David Watson (UK), Professor Dylan Wiliam (UK), Dr. Mark Wormald (UK), Professor Theo Wubbels (The Netherlands), Professor Michael Young (UK), and Professor Minxuan Zhang (China) as they explore the big picture education questions that all nations face today.
The Global Search for Education Community Page
C. M. Rubin is the author of two widely read online series for which she received a 2011 Upton Sinclair award, “The Global Search for Education” and “How Will We Read?” She is also the author of three bestselling books, including The Real Alice in Wonderland.
Follow C. M. Rubin on Twitter: www.twitter.com/@cmrubinworld
The Global Search for Education
“Early language skills have to be developed. This is something that the German government is trying to intensify at the moment.” — Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schneider
A View From Germany
By C. M. Rubin with Harry Rubin and Michael Freeborn
Fighting the war on poverty with high quality early childhood education programs is an issue discussed and supported by numerous contributors to The Global Search For Education series. Researchers, educators and policy makers have argued that vital learning can and should begin before age 5. When schooling starts for poor children at kindergarten or first grade they have already missed out on vital opportunities to develop skills needed to help them thrive academically, socially, physically and emotionally in their early years of learning.
Today in The Global Search for Education, it is our honor to share the views of Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schneider on pre-school learning and additional matters related to the German and other education systems.
Dr. Wolfgang Schneider is currently Professor of Psychology in the Department of Psychology, University of Wurzburg, Germany. His research interests include the development of memory and metacognition, giftedness and expertise, the development of reading and spelling, as well as the prevention of reading and math difficulties. He was Vice President and President of the German Psychological Society (2000-2004), and also Vice President of the University of Würzburg (2004-2009). He is author and co-editor of about 40 books, including Memory Development between Two and Twenty, which he co-authored with Michael Pressley. He is currently President of the International Society for the Study of Behavioral Development (ISSBD).
“We found that children at risk really can catch up if they have training in the early years.”— Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schneider
There are a number of prominent views in the US that pre-school education makes a significant difference in the success of children in primary school. What are the essential elements of this education and what is the impact on child development? Do you believe it can have a significant impact on the achievement gap between affluent and poor children?
Early language skills have to be developed. This is something that the German government is trying to intensify at the moment. We have made some progress regarding the phonological training programs in our country. We also have evidence that training children in phonological awareness helps them to develop the first stages of reading and spelling in school. We have evidence regarding early math training programs too and there are a few rather effective approaches there.
So there has been evidence that early pre-school programs make a difference, particularly for kids at risk. We did a couple of studies with children at risk and compared their improvement with normally developed children. We found that children at risk really can catch up if they have training in the early years. And when they are able to move up to the same level as normal kindergarten kids, they seem to be able to develop well in school.
What is the nature of the kindergarten training programs that you designed and what impact has it had on the mental development of children? Are the programs equally as effective with affluent and poor?
We designed a popular training program with two components. One focuses on phonological awareness in both the broad and narrow sense. Phonological awareness in the broad sense would be something like rhyme identification or syllable segmentation. Phonological awareness in the narrow sense means identification of phonemes in syllables. We found it was possible to get German speaking kindergarten children to identify phonemes in syllables and words, and those kids who satisfied that criteria were able to acquire reading and spelling skills earlier than usual. We combined the phonological awareness training with letter-sound coordination training. And so for some frequently used letters, we taught children how they link to phonemes. This helped the children pick up the letter phonemes training in school. We had control groups in our studies that did not receive phonological training but participated in the usual kindergarten program. Thus we were able to compare kids who were trained and kids who did not participate. We discovered that the trained kids had an advantage by the end of kindergarten and kept that advantage during their first years in school. It’s very important that there was a long lasting effect here. Particularly with kids who had poor initial skills.
Right now we are developing an early educational program for kindergarten children for all 16 states in Germany. We will finish our proposal at the end of 2012.
Do you think that the PISA test is an effective measure of the full range of mental aptitudes of students?
I don’t think it’s an effective measure of the full range of mental aptitudes. It does give you a good impression of 15-year-old students’ reading skills, math skills and their ability to cope in the science area, but we don’t get any evidence about their intellectual abilities. In 2000 we included a measure of non-verbal intelligence in a German extension of the PISA study which compared performance among the 16 German states and which was based on a large sample of about 50,000 students. When we assessed the impact of intelligence on performance in math, reading and science, we figured out that non-verbal intelligence was a strong predictor in most of these tests.
“I believe the arts are underestimated in our system. Whenever teachers have to cut hours in a curriculum, the arts get cut first. We have to change that.” — Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schneider
Do you think that in some countries, teaching to the PISA test is now occurring?
I think that this probably does happen and I think that is a problem. However, I also believe that the way the PISA organization process works makes it difficult. In Germany for example, schools are selected at random. And there is almost no chance for a school to escape once it has been selected. I suppose there could be a couple of schools in the sample that have practiced for the test but we don’t think that would apply to the entire sample.
Do you think that some countries have educational curricula that provide better preparation for the test than others? Does it surprise you that “grinder” countries like South Korea and less structured countries such as Finland both do very well on the test?
As to the impact of different educational systems on the results of the PISA test, it seems very difficult to come up with clear-cut conclusions. You have a diverse group of countries included in the PISA sample with different educational systems, so you have to be very careful when you compare. However, the achievement patterns observed for the various PISA samples that we’ve seen from 2000 to 2009 seem to be rather consistent for most of the countries participating. The countries at the top for reading and math, such as Finland and the Asian countries, are famous for their superior curricula in these domains and their competent training programs. So their excellent performance does not seem to be surprising.
The Finnish educational system really focuses on all children, including the weak children, in classrooms. As a consequence, the achievement variance in Finnish children is much smaller than the variance in children in most other countries. So Finland is successful with bringing all their children up to a high level, which many other countries do not achieve.
When you look at the instructional procedures in a country like South Korea, you see that there is a lot of drilling and practice and very heavy workloads on the students. This is something we do not have in Germany. So I think the quantity of instruction in South Korea makes a big difference here. In former times, Benjamin Bloom in the US already noticed that the quantity of instruction and the time given to reach a criterion is usually a good indicator of student outcomes.
What are the key strengths and weaknesses of the German educational system as you see it?
In Germany we have different curricula in 16 different states. A couple of states, including Bavaria and Saxony, seem to do very well and may even compare with the Finnish achievement scores. The teachers follow the curriculum pretty strictly, which seems to make an impact. We have systematic findings that show while some of our states perform very well others perform poorly. Each state has its own policy. The policies differ a lot, and the states are not able to agree on a common curriculum. Our federal ministry of education has tried to change that but it is difficult as our law states that education must be linked to the state policy.
What is the mix of arts in the usual curriculum in Germany? How do you the see role of the arts in primary and secondary education?
I believe the arts are underestimated in our system. Whenever teachers have to cut hours in a curriculum, the arts get cut first. We have to change that. I believe the arts are important. I think we should start an arts education at the beginning of elementary school, which is not the case now. The major argument against the arts is always that kids shouldn’t do too much in the early years of their education where the emphasis must be on reading, writing and math. Thirty years ago this was not the case as music education started earlier. Now that has changed and it is not a good development.
Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schneider and C. M. Rubin
Photos courtesy of Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schneider.
In The Global Search for Education, join me and globally renowned thought leaders including Sir Michael Barber (UK), Dr. Michael Block (US), Dr. Leon Botstein (US), Professor Clay Christensen (US), Dr. Linda Darling-Hammond (US), Dr. Madhav Chavan (India), Professor Michael Fullan (Canada), Professor Howard Gardner (US), Professor Yvonne Hellman (The Netherlands), Professor Kristin Helstad (Norway), Jean Hendrickson (US), Professor Rose Hipkins (New Zealand), Professor Cornelia Hoogland (Canada), Mme. Chantal Kaufmann (Belgium), Dr. Eija Kauppinen (Finland), State Secretary Tapio Kosunen (Finland), Professor Dominique Lafontaine (Belgium), Professor Hugh Lauder (UK), Professor Ben Levin (Canada), Professor Barry McGaw (Australia), Shiv Nadar (India), Professor R. Natarajan (India), Dr. Pak Tee Ng (Singapore), Dr. Denise Pope (US), Sridhar Rajagopalan (India), Dr. Diane Ravitch (US), Sir Ken Robinson (UK), Professor Pasi Sahlberg (Finland), Andreas Schleicher (PISA, OECD), Dr. Anthony Seldon (UK), Dr. David Shaffer (US), Dr. Kirsten Sivesind (Norway), Chancellor Stephen Spahn (US), Yves Theze (Lycee Francais US), Professor Charles Ungerleider (Canada), Professor Tony Wagner (US), Sir David Watson (UK), Professor Dylan Wiliam (UK), Dr. Mark Wormald (UK), Professor Theo Wubbels (The Netherlands), Professor Michael Young (UK), and Professor Minxuan Zhang (China) as they explore the big picture education questions that all nations face today.
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C. M. Rubin is the author of two widely read online series for which she received a 2011 Upton Sinclair award, “The Global Search for Education” and “How Will We Read?” She is also the author of three bestselling books, including The Real Alice in Wonderland.
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